It always makes headlines when a serviceman or woman, after being given orders to go to a war zone, refuses to go. It happened in the US, and now in the UK. There are arguments on both sides of this issue and those debating the issue never stick with the question - is it right for soldiers to do this? Of course, the government's answer is "no", that's why they are court martialed, but the public is always divided.

Personally, I believe it is a very difficult decision to enter the services; therefore, those embarking on such a path should consider it carefully. Once the individual has decided to join up, they need to fulfill their commitment. I don't think it's right to back out because you're scared or you argue that such and such a war is not ethical. That's not what you have to decide.

But it appears that as society becomes more liberal-minded, they want everyone, including soldiers, to question their actions. There's a time and a place for everything, but in the midst of war, it's not the time to turn your back and run because you don't believe in what you're doing.

And I don't want to hear Britons arguing that Afghanistan is America's war and that the terrorists didn't do anything to Britain until they joined. Baloney. That's just what the terrorists want you to believe.

Hi Dig,

I respect your ideas that soldiers shouldn't question authority. And that liberals are questioning issues.
It is my belief that ALL citizens should question everything.Soldiers swear an oath to uphold the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.
When a soldiers given an order to do something unconstitutional they have a right and in fact it is their duty to refuse that order.
They don't swear an oath to the government or military, but to the constitution.
It's of course in my opinion, that of course some are scared, but I believe it's more about some orders being unconstitutional not that the war is unethical.
No where in the US Constitution does it say the government can preemptively attack another foreign nation without a declaration of war, then occupy those countries while building a new government.
There's an excellent utube video called Fabled Enemies that's free, it will lead you down the rabbit hole to what I believe to be the truth.
And isn't that what we all should base the future off of?

Thanks for your talking points...........Ghosty

(08-10-2009 06:10 PM)Digressor Wrote:  It always makes headlines when a serviceman or woman, after being given orders to go to a war zone, refuses to go. It happened in the US, and now in the UK. There are arguments on both sides of this issue and those debating the issue never stick with the question - is it right for soldiers to do this? Of course, the government's answer is "no", that's why they are court martialed, but the public is always divided.

Personally, I believe it is a very difficult decision to enter the services; therefore, those embarking on such a path should consider it carefully. Once the individual has decided to join up, they need to fulfill their commitment. I don't think it's right to back out because you're scared or you argue that such and such a war is not ethical. That's not what you have to decide.

But it appears that as society becomes more liberal-minded, they want everyone, including soldiers, to question their actions. There's a time and a place for everything, but in the midst of war, it's not the time to turn your back and run because you don't believe in what you're doing.

And I don't want to hear Britons arguing that Afghanistan is America's war and that the terrorists didn't do anything to Britain until they joined. Baloney. That's just what the terrorists want you to believe.

Hi Dig…..in 1935, General Smedley Butler, one of America’s most decorated naval officers wrote his autobiography, “War Is a Racket.”

Here are some statistics from his book.

WW1 created 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires.
WW1 cost the U.S. 52 Billion. A profit of 16 billion went to a few.
The Dupont Powder family through WW1 went from yearly earnings of 6 million to 58 million.
Steel Companies through WW1 went from yearly earnings of 6 million to 49 million.

War=huge war profits to a relative few.

Soldiers are put through mass psychology to change them into eager, aggressive killers.
Political rallies are highly emotionally charged events where information can bypass critical conscious judgment. (G. O’Donnell)

War is created by wealthy social engineers who understand human psychology and how to manipulate the larger economic and social forces within society.

The passion for patriotism and to shed your blood for country and nation is enculturated and conditioned in. (Cultural historian J. Pearce.)

After two horrific World Wars, and a human history of countless, senseless massacres and small scale wars man is still killing man because our boundaries between each other which are cultural, nationalistic and internationalistic are enculturated in so strongly it prevents us from realizing that devoid of these boundaries we are all the human race….a Brotherhood of Man…

When will we all wake up and agree that the only thing that should be conditioned in is a higher respect for the sanctity of human life and a higher level of moral and ethical responsibility towards one another as people, countries and nations??

Regards Mikal

That's the problem. We will never be able to get everyone to agree to anything unless they are willing to give up their religions, their wealth, their land, and everything else they fight over. Envy and jealousy has been in existence since Adam and Eve (a myth), so there really is no way for the world to wake up and suddenly find this higher respect. But that's not really the question. One person can make a difference, but you really have to think about what that difference is.

Dig...change in the world begins with us, each one of us as an individual. Peace will never be found outside of us, it is found within and it takes a huge struggle that is well worth taking...

Its easy to say that envy and jealousy have always been around but competition is conditioned in and it leads to the will to power over others. It is probably our greatest evil...

Adam and Eve is not a myth...it is an ancient allegory and a metaphorical and symbolic story that can only be understood intuitively....

Regards Mikal

(08-15-2009 06:18 AM)Mikal Wrote:  Its easy to say that envy and jealousy have always been around but competition is conditioned in and it leads to the will to power over others. It is probably our greatest evil...

Adam and Eve is not a myth...it is an ancient allegory and a metaphorical and symbolic story that can only be understood intuitively....

Hi,

Adam and Eve is a false collective belief used to help justify a broader institution or belief system; in that sense it is a myth. Over the centuries, no rational evidence has surfaced to strengthen its veracity; however, science has developed methods to cast significant doubt on all aspects of the story.

To use your phrase, belief in such stories has to be "conditioned in" from a young age; centuries of war and bloodshed testify to the results of this.

Hi Watts....I think you better study some ancient history. The ancients lived in a culture heavily laden with mystery schools. In those mystery schools, they were involved in the alteration of consciousness always attempting to achieve the point (Alchemy) where they would raise their consciousness up out of the collective mass or mindset.
In their principle of thought Adam was the higher self, Eve was the middle self or middle/subjective ego and the serpent represented the lower objective ego or lower personality.
I don't know about you but nobody ever conditioned that into me, I had to study ancient history to intuitively understand their mystery schools.

In our past history there were shamans who attained very high spiritual states of consciousness which reveal humanities' potential for his own psychic abilities like higher perception and OBEs, clairaudience...etch...

At the beginning of the 20th century there were 3 mainstreams in society which desired to cast significant doubt on human ability. That was Science, Psychology and Psychiatry. One would wonder why??
Here we are today really mired in a Scientific Dictatorship, Psychology filtered Behavioral Psychology into our educational institutions so Psychiatry could mass drug everyone from infant to the old. Why don't you study Ingo Swanns Paper he presented to the UN. Its online but of course by itself it is puzzling but connected to other pieces of information it just creates the BIGGER PICTURE....

Regards Mikal

Personally I find your post addressing a good issue, but let me ask you are you in the military? I think for those who serve deserve the right to refuse to enter a war they do not believe in. I do not believe it's because they are scared, rather because they believe the war is not in their line of duty which is to protect their country. I believe they already proved they are not afriad just by passing their military training. And before you have experienced and gone through what they have, you have no place in telling them they must go fight a war they do not want to fight. And as for the governements that tells their soldiers it's illegal for them to decline an order is ridiculous. If the government believed in the war so much why aren't their children/family joining?

You say the soldiers are scared to fight...... I say the government is scared to fight their own battles/differences, instead they rely on getting their soldeirs from TAX PAYERS families that believe they are fighting to protect a peaceful non-corrupt country, who also (let me remind you) pay for all the governments paychecks and wars. And as one of the payers I say we more than enough, have the room and right to say which war we are to fight especially the ones who fight it.